Discussion Forum Leica S System S Lenses Where are the CS lenses?
  • #3091
    PebblePlace

    Title pretty much says it all. Are they shipping?

  • #3092
    Josh Lehrer

    Unfortunately the CS lenses have not yet started to ship from Leica yet. They will have a number of pre-production examples at Photo Plus Expo in New York City next week, and I will be sure to ask them what the status of production is.

  • #3095
    ddanois

    I’ll be sure to ask them about the quality control around announcements, not just the gear. (they did say October 2012 for the CS lenses, didn’t they?)

    Remind me again how long it has been since they first promised these!

    I think that it’s astounding that we are seeing the announcement of a replacement S camera before the first deliveries of these lenses.

    I’m currently waiting on 5 CS lens replacements (via vouchers) and I’m really disappointed.

    There are delays, and then there is taking your base for granted.

  • #3096
    PebblePlace

    Actually, I think October is the 3rd or 4th date they have given for CS availability. Generally i do not need CS lenses, but I would like to have one – either the 70 or 120 CS.

    Maybe they will start selling the HC adapter with little red Leica stickers so people can put a sticker over the Hasselblad logo ๐Ÿ™‚

  • #3103
    Paratom

    I think the word “delivery date” at Leica means “eventually delivered earliest…”
    Good thing they can do optics better than scheduling.

  • #3104
    Al Tanabe

    Have they changed their position on the upgrade process? I thought that there was no time limit on when you bought the original lens and was told just the opposite recently that there is a definite cut off date. So I checked on the owners area today and there indeed is a purchase by date of Sept 20, 2010. So it would appear that any lens purchased after that date are not eligible for the trade in program. In other words, all of my lenses ๐Ÿ™ And the sad fact is that I bought the system with the CS lenses in mind and would have upgraded all of them to CS when they became available.

    From the S Owners Area:

    “With this S-System lens voucher, you can trade up any Leica S-System lens purchased on or before Monday 20th September 2010 to a new S lens of the same focal length with a central shutter. “

  • #3105
    Mark Gowin

    Al,

    I believe David Farkas has checked into this and confirmed that the upgrades are available on purchases after the Sept 20, 2010 date and up until the CS lenses become available or something like that. Hopefully, David can clarify. I too have a lens purchase after that date which I hope is upgradable.

    Mark

  • #3107
    PebblePlace

    David had posted that Leica is still offering the CS trade-in program:

    http://www.reddotforum.com/showthread.php/458-180mm-or-120mm-First?p=1932&viewfull=1#post1932

  • #3108
    Al Tanabe

    David and Josh,
    Please confirm this during your conversations with Leica management this week.

  • #3109
    Josh Lehrer

    This is definitely a “grey area” right now, but I will be asking Leica about this when I see them in New York this week. I have a feeling we won’t have many updates until the CS lenses begin shipping.

  • #3120
    PebblePlace

    Any news from Photo Plus?

  • #3131
    stephan

    This is definitely a “grey area” right now, but I will be asking Leica about this when I see them in New York this week.

    this is really an important question. We should all insist that any buyer of Leica-S lenses is elegible at least till end of 2012! Finally it’s a premium product, and, much more important, not the customer were responsible for the very late delivery of the CS lenses.

    Remember that Leica put the CS-lenses in the center of the marketing of the new S-system, and we are somewhat of p….ed off that now they try to find subtile arguments to exclude some earlier customers (and those from the second-hand market).

    I sent two lenses for the upgrade (one where the CS-price was allready payed!) and will see how they behave. For me the credibility of the marketing of Leica is in question

    (I hope that someone from Leica reads this)

  • #3145
    PebblePlace

    Well, the lenses do physically exist – they are shown here in David’s picture from PhotoPlus – Photo Plus Expo Post. I know that doesn’t answer your question or resolve the situation, but it’s something.

  • #3146
    David Farkas

    Yes, the lenses exist and sync perfectly at 1/1000th. They haven’t started shipping yet, but are expected to by December.

    We are still trying to determine how Leica will carry out the upgrade program given the delays. I’m sorry we haven’t been able to get a definitive answer yet.

  • #3148
    PebblePlace

    Leica is probably struggling to figure out how to actually administer the program:

    — What to do with the incoming inventory?
    — What stays at the dealer level vs what comes back to Germany?
    — Do lenses sent back to Germany get reconditioned and re-cert’d?
    — What if the lens is in well-used condition?
    — How fast can they liquidate the incoming S lenses?

    We’re focused on the lenses, but Leica is looking at cash flow and margins. I am glad I am not the program manager on this, or the marketing guy that hatched this egg.

  • #3151
    ddanois

    WOW…Now it’s December? What happened to October 2012?

    I’ve lost count of how many resets we have been given on the arrival of the CS lenses. Isn’t it pointless to even give another “expected arrival date”?

    I know that Leica feels that they have pacified the need for these by introducing the S-Hasselblad adapter but they are wrong. All they have done is tell us to go with Hasselblad if you need leaf shutter functionality.

    Production delays are one thing but year, over year, over year “push-backs” are just plain misrepresentation!

    In the past, I would ascribe a 6-9 month fudge factor to any Leica announcement but the CS lens issue is one for the record books.

    David, I know that you’re just the messenger but do you ever tell your Leica contacts that this has gone beyond being absurd? Do they show any concern for the S user base or is it a “you’ll get it when you get it and you’ll like it” attitude?

    As good business people, they must not see a real need for this in the market or they would have met the earlier expectations. Perhaps it’s seen as a nice to have and not a need to have.

    I know that I’m rambling but as you can see, I’m frustrated, Ugh!

  • #3156
    Roger

    As pointed out above Leica has gotten themselves into quite a jam with the delay of the CS lenses . If they provide the previously agreed upon trade in ..they will get a flood of new orders for the CS lenses . Would a good guess be one or two CS lenses for every S2 body sold? (this would also make the CS lenses essentially unavailable to any new buyer of an S body ).

    At the same time they would have a similar flow of used S lenses hit the market . Trade in prices would exceed FMV by 20-30% (based on my review of recent sales on ebay ) . Consider also that the greatest need and demand would be professionals ..that typically would have used the lenses pretty hard .

    Granted this is a problem caused by problems with the CS lenses and over promising by Leica . Stings if the CS lenses were part of your buying decision . Has to hard on David and Josh .

    This looks like a Lose Lose Lose situation even with the best intentions .

  • #3157
    Roger

    Here is my recommendation to Leica (for what its worth) .

    1. Establish a clear cut off date for lenses that can be upgraded . (sometime in 2011). This should account for the delay in getting any S lens and can be done as an extension of of the OCT 2010 deadline . Lens purchased after the date aren t covered .

    2. Would be desirable to only allow the trade in to the original purchaser and require an invoice(not sure if this can be done).

    3. Establish a window of time and cut off for submitting a claim for CS lens. This establishes the number .

    4. Flow all CS trade ins thru Solms or NJ (sorry not popular but thats how they sold the lenses on the M8 problem). All S lenses (USA)would be sent to NJ for evaluation and sign off .

    5. Maintain a separate priority for trade ins and allocate part of new production to trade ins and part to new sales .

    6. Run the trade ins thru Solms for certification and establish a certified resale program for S lenses.

    So its ..establish a policy and protocol for the program, take the dealers out of the middle and fill the orders from an allocation .

  • #3158
    stephan

    Hello Roger

    I can’t disagree more about point 2!

    It should be possible for EVERY owner of a S-lens to upgrade before the date of first delivery of CS-lenses (something in autumn 2012). Why? Many of us bought standard S-lenses, new or second market, with the strong will (and no other option anyway) to upgrade later to CS-lenses.

    The CS-lenses were promised long time ago, and the upgrade program was a main argument to invest in the Leica S-system. The restriction od upgrading up to a specific date was made later, and poorly communicated.

    I would be highly disapointed when I wouldn’t be able to upgrade the two lenses that I intended to upgrade to CS.

  • #3164
    Al Tanabe

    I am confident that Leica will answer with a fair and thoughtful solution. They have proven to be responsive to the customer needs and have shown above and beyond support with the M8 IR issue and M9 cracked sensor problems.

    I purchased my lenses after the deadline, registered online and was allowed to download CS lens vouchers. I also saved them as a pdf on my computer, just in case :o. I bought into the system with the intention to use CS lenses, was told along the way by dealers that the old lenses would be upgraded even if the published deadline has passed. Verbal vs written contracts always favor the written so if Leica insists, the cut off date is Sept 2010. This would result in many angered owners and dealers with major PR issues on their hands.

  • #3172
    Roger

    The question is whats fair and responsive ? Leica clearly needs to extend the Sept10,2010 cut off ..not only because the CS lenses were not available ..but also because you could not get S lenses either .

    I would expect that they will try to draw a line someplace. Without a cut off you could just pick up a few used S lenses and trade them in for a discount on a new CS lens .

    Anyway my thoughts were just a hypothetical solution that should bring out the challenges Leica faces .

  • #3180
    fotografz

    Leica cannot make this their customer’s problem. It is their problem, and they should solve it. If they wanted to limit the time-line, then they should have clearly and concisely done it up front, not after the fact.

    I bought the S2 primarily because it was a dual shutter camera. In effect, that selling feature has not been usable for the entire time I’ve owned the system. Only recently have I used the H to S adapter for high-speed sync mode on the S2 … for a mere $2,000 premium.

    However, how many S2 users are also H users like me? If I didn’t already have the HC lenses, I seriously doubt I’d buy them just to use high-speed sync on the S2 unless absolutely necessary for my work (which, for me it is). BTW, the difference between 1/750th and 1/1/000th sync is not much in actual practice … plus I’m wondering if the new S with an 1/800 shutter speed setting will also sync the H lenses at 1/800?. Bet it will.

    Then there is the “voucher” … which, as a registered S2 owner I was NEVER told about by Leica … only recently reading about it here on Red Dot. WTF!

    I want to convert my 35, 70, and 120 to CS versions … and am satisfied with the HC/HCD for 24, 28, 50, 100 and 150 CS/FP focal lengths … none of which Leica offers. BTW, the HC50-II is particularly good on the S2 and provides a much desired approx 35mm focal length field-of-view.

    -Marc

  • #3181
    Roger

    [QUOTE=fotografz;3753]Leica cannot make this their customer’s problem. It is their problem, and they should solve it. If they wanted to limit the time-line, then they should have clearly and concisely done it up front, not after the fact.

    Marc

    I have no ax to grind here as I never considered the CS versions in my purchase decision . Leica is clearly in a jam way beyond what was anticipated with the trade in program . My “recommendation” was just a way to force out some of the challenges .

    Leica needs a cut off date on the “program” ..it can be last year , today or when the first CS lens is available ….they clearly have the right to not extend the program to future purchases of S lenses. But they have to get their arms around this .

    They need policies in areas never anticipated :

    1. Is the condition of the trade in lens at all a factor? The original buyer can t do much about wear if he can t get a CS lens. However should Leica have to accept at well below FMV lenses that may have been used hard ? How about lenses that have been abused ?

    2. Do they have to extend the program to other than the original purchase ? You can buy a used 70 for as low as $3K and then trade up for $1500 . ($6k-4.5) .

    3. How should they allocate new lenses ? You and others have been waiting forever ! Yet if all CS lenses go to existing trade ins ….how will they sell the new S?

    4. How should they administer the program ? Let the dealers handle it ? (chaos prediction) . Solms ..register and get in line ?

    5. What to do with the used S lenses?

    Whats fair ? What could work? Creating a straw man solution is just a way to identify the issues and things that should be addressed by a decent program .

  • #3182
    fotografz

    Roger, I understand your ideas as being thoughtful suggestions.

    I do NOT think for a moment that this offer should extend to lenses bought used. The incentive was intended to stimulate new sales of the S2 and what lenses existed … not everything, forever.

    This concept isn’t new. The MFD makers have done it for some time. Buy the current camera and pay the difference when the new one is available. They usually set the price for the “difference” and have a set time limit for the Promotion. If the newer camera is late in arriving, they then extend the dead-line for the promo.

    IMO, it is strictly a marketing ploy 101 to keep people interested in the newer product, and as such is not the responsibility of the customer to implement.

    Timing of the exchange could be rather simple … once the CS lenses are in production and can be shipped, place a defined cut off date to ask for the updated CS versions of your lens bought new and base the priority off the original purchase date.

    Clearly communicate the above to registered owners of the S2.

    -Marc

  • #3183
    Al Tanabe

    Roger,
    The wording on the certificate is below, it does imply that the lens has to have been bought from a Leica S dealer as you will have to go through them for the exchange. So in a way this keeps second hand lenses purchased from private parties out of the program.

    “Dear Leica Customer,
    We would like to thank you for your loyalty to our brand with this special S-System offer. Using this voucher, you can exchange the lens below for a Leica S-System central shutter lens with the same focal length. You can trade up your S lens, with this voucher via the authorised Leica S dealer from whom you originally purchased it. They will exchange your current lens for a lens of same focal length but with a central shutter. The original purchase price of your lens will be credited against the purchase of the new CS lens in full, without any deduction for wear and tear. You will only pay the difference in price.”

    The difference in price is what the owner will pay, so if you got a great deal on the 70 at $3000 and the price of the CS is $5995, then you will need to pay the difference of $2995 for the upgrade. No deduction for wear and tear on the lens as well. I think when this first came about they figured it would only be a short time before the CS lenses would be introduced and number of lenses would be minimal and wear and tear would also be light.

  • #3184
    Roger

    So it looks like only the original purchaser of a new lens from an authorized dealer will qualify ….seems reasonable . Maybe not as difficult a process as it looked at first glance . Great for the S2 owners .

    Now if they can just start supplying the lenses . ๐Ÿ˜Ž

  • #3185
    fotografz

    So, where does one find these vouchers? Link please?

    -Marc

  • #3186
    ddanois

    Owners login area. Once you register your S lens you can use the link in the owners area to download the voucher. It will be pre-filled out with your dealer info and the lens info.

  • #3190
    stephan

    I registered all my lenses and never got a voucher or what ever.

    I don’t get the argument about used lenses. When Leica sold the first S-lenses to the customers, they made a clear statement that they will upgrade those lenses for the price difference (mostely 1000 Euro) later once the CS-option is available (and they were talking about months, not years). I don’t see no valuable argument to limit this clearly stated offer LATER without further notice. First, there is obviously no difference for Leica if the first or second or third user comes in for an upgrade (in contrary, this can be a good oportunity to get a new customer). Second, the possibility to upgrade later was priced in in the product at the moment of sale. If Leica comes later and restrict this option, they have to pay a compensation (not to speak about the loss of renomรฉ) to the owner of the lenses.

    What is the cost for a customer when Leica limits the upgrade program? When you bought a S-Lens with the idea to upgrade it later, and want to do it now, you have to sell your lens and will loose about 20-30 % of the value of the lens (maybe even more as other will have to do the same at the same time). I think this is simply not an acceptable option.

    Personally, I have bought 2 Hasselblad lenses (HC 100 and HC 150 mm) and one adapter. Having to do this is in itself allready an issue, but when Leica doesn’t come out soon with a customer friendly solution, I may switch to Hasselblad alltogether. Their lenses arent bad at all.

    Btw, I sent in two of my lenses for the upgrade about 6 weeks ago and didn’t even got a feed-back what will happen and when.

    This said, the “pro-aspect” of Leica is much put in front in their advertising and marketing, but actually I find their customer service not “pro” at all.

  • #3192
    David K

    Whatever position Leica takes with regard to the upgrade…it needs to happen sooner rather than later. I see no reason for delaying a clear and concise announcement regarding this issue.

  • #3497
    Josh Lehrer

    The official word from Leica on this upgrade program is now available:

    Leica S CS Lens Upgrade Program Finalized

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