Discussion Forum Leica S System S2 Editorial shoot with the Leica S2
  • #3213
    arminw

    First I have to say I love the camera for its size and image quality. However, what's it like on a shoot when you have magazine people and art directors in your neck ? I am using the laters edition of Lightroom and Apple's Retina MacBook Pro with 16 GB of memory and the highest processor Apple offers plus 750 Solit state hard drive .
    Shooting thethered is not what it should be like ! I usually use Hasselblad's phocus and its smooth, the adjustment settings are easy to use and the image comes in fast ready to be reviewed on the screen . With the Leica and Lightroom combo it's slow, the image needs to be rotated if shot in portrait , again slow and if you use it for half an hour or so it's so slow you have to restart the program . Come on that can't be it , can it ?
    Another problem I have noticed is Moire ! It's really bad …. Of course Lightroom offers a moire brush to sort it out but still .
    So Leica is great , but software wise I think they have to look into writing a better code to control the camera via Lightroom .

    http://www.twenty-6.co.uk/issue-g/fashion/gigolo

  • #3219
    Mark Gowin

    For what it's worth, Leica has new version of its shuttle software for shooting tethered which should be released soon. I saw it in action at the Leica studio event at PhotoPlus about a month ago. I don't know when it will be available for S2 owners to download and I don't know if it offers any performance improvement over the current version. Perhaps David Farkas has more info on the new shuttle software.

  • #3222
    arminw

    Thanks mark for the info … Ill keep and eye on that .

  • #3234
    Rewi

    arminw;3815 wrote:
    Shooting tethered is not what it should be like ! I usually use Hasselblad's phocus and its smooth, the adjustment settings are easy to use and the image comes in fast ready to be reviewed on the screen . With the Leica and Lightroom combo it's slow, the image needs to be rotated if shot in portrait , again slow and if you use it for half an hour or so it's so slow you have to restart the program . Come on that can't be it , can it ?

    So Leica is great , but software wise I think they have to look into writing a better code to control the camera via Lightroom .

    http://www.twenty-6.co.uk/issue-g/fashion/gigolo

    Hhhhmmmm, I was very close to pulling the trigger on a used S2 but the tethered speed issue is a deal breaker.

    David Farkas or anyone else have a chance to test/review the new Leica S tethered speed at the Leica S-Studio at Photo Plus Expo :confused:

  • #3235
    RVB

    Rewi;3841 wrote: Hhhhmmmm, I was very close to pulling the trigger on a used S2 but the tethered speed issue is a deal breaker.

    David Farkas or anyone else have a chance to test/review the new Leica S tethered speed at the Leica S-Studio at Photo Plus Expo :confused:

    I have used the S2 tethered a few time's,it's not as fast as a Hasselblad but still quick enough when you use file compression,I doubt the new S will be any different as they still use USB 2.

    I would expect to see usb 3 in the next version of the S.. (S4. ???)

    I would'nt let the issue stop me from buying an S,the system is a pleasure to use,great ergonomic's and super glass….

  • #3238
    David Farkas

    arminw;3815 wrote: First I have to say I love the camera for its size and image quality. However, what's it like on a shoot when you have magazine people and art directors in your neck ? I am using the laters edition of Lightroom and Apple's Retina MacBook Pro with 16 GB of memory and the highest processor Apple offers plus 750 Solit state hard drive .
    Shooting thethered is not what it should be like ! I usually use Hasselblad's phocus and its smooth, the adjustment settings are easy to use and the image comes in fast ready to be reviewed on the screen . With the Leica and Lightroom combo it's slow, the image needs to be rotated if shot in portrait , again slow and if you use it for half an hour or so it's so slow you have to restart the program . Come on that can't be it , can it ?
    Another problem I have noticed is Moire ! It's really bad …. Of course Lightroom offers a moire brush to sort it out but still .
    So Leica is great , but software wise I think they have to look into writing a better code to control the camera via Lightroom .

    http://www.twenty-6.co.uk/issue-g/fashion/gigolo

    Armin,

    Were you shooting compressed DNG or uncompressed? This makes a big difference with transfer speed, and the compression is totally lossless. I think Leica did a disservice to even have the uncompressed option on there as most will think it offers better quality – it doesn't.

    Also, LR tethering was MUCH faster before v4. Be it all the additional image processing algorithms and improvements or otherwise, LR4 is much, much slower than LR3. Even simple tasks like 1:1 zoom can be painfully slow. My hope is that this is addressed in the near future.

    According to Leica, USB2 isn't the bottleneck, and I'm inclined to agree. If you bring up the folder where the images are being deposited, you can see them show up well before they are displayed in LR.

    Another potential issue is OS X. When we first ran speed comparison tests between LR3.2/S2 tethering and C1/P45+, we saw a large disparity between Windows 7 and OS X. For our testing, we used the same i7 iMac and used Boot Camp to boot into Windows. So, the hardware was identical. I questioned Adobe about this and was told it was a limitation of memory handling in OS X that was to blame.

    The other option, rather than going straight into LR, is to use Leica Image Shuttle software and preview the files in Bridge. One of the Leica S team members showed me this workflow at Photokina with the new S and it was very quick. And advantage of using Shuttle is that you can have it display a quick preview before the image is even fully transferred. The 2MP preview JPG that is rendered on the fly for display on the rear LCD is pushed over the wire first and shows up in a separate preview window about 1.5 seconds after capture. This is useful for checking composition, model expression, lighting, etc. with a quick glance. If you want to check focus, you'd then only have to wait another 4 or 5 seconds until the full image is rendered in LR (or Bridge).

    I recently got a new laptop (a PC, not a Mac) and will run a quick tether test when I get a chance. Unfortunately, I don't have a rMBP to test against, just a 2010 dual i7 15″ MBP.

  • #3239
    arminw

    Thanks for all your replies . I understand there are other options out there to overcome the slow Tethering process of Lr , but the point is to simplify the task . Shoot and get it on the computer screen to review and if necessary to adjust the settings and show a close to near resemblance of the final image. That's the way it should work , a hand in had shooting and developing of RAW files experience. As it is now its just not good enough! Imagine a print out for the art director at the same time …. You'll get nuts during all that process and waiting . No, I don't think it's ready just yet . As much as I love the Leica S2 for shooting , it's just not right for a full blown tethered session. A still photographer might find it acceptable , but believe you me on a shoot with 10 people behind you watching and commenting … You need a lot of nerves .

  • #3240
    fotografz

    I'll preface the following with how much I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the S2!

    However, for pro works I think Leica will have to address this tethered issue sooner, if not later in the next iteration of the S camera. At least USB3, preferably Thunderbolt because by then it will be more ubiquitous.

    One really needs to be on set with paid models, grips, and lighting techs … or food prep people and mere seconds to get the fresh look … compounded by clients breathing down your neck … to really grasp the importance of tethered shooting/and fast review … including zoom checks of focus.

    IMO, the Leica Shuttle isn't the answer … unless they add the functionality found in Hasselblad's Phocus, Phase One's C1 Pro, or even pokey LightRoom … which I seriously doubt, but I'll wait and see.

    I think two things are happening … 1) As mentioned, and I can confirm, LR4 is slower. Adobe recently added tethered shooting for Hasselblad H cameras with FW800 tether, and compared to Phocus it is snail slow … 2) I do not buy that USB2 is not a bottle neck IF one needs to zoom check at resolution. In the process of shooting tethered, one often shoots in bursts, and very often it is the last few shots that are of most interest … waiting for an eternity for those to fully load is unacceptable and breaks the creative rhythm of a shoot.

    I have to make a decision whether to upgrade the S2 to the S, or upgrade my H4D/60 to a H5D/200 M/S. Can't do both, and may do neither. IMO, the S can just about equal the H/50 camera for single shot so that's a wash. MS adds something no one can equal: perfect color fidelity and zero moirĂ©. Right now, I'm leaning to the H solution, and one of the prime reasons is tethered shooting in the studio. I had really, really hoped the new S would have offered USB3. Comparatively speaking, with the right Graphics Card and Phocus, the H promises to be much faster to use in studio and location work …. with clients and all that … especially using WiFi transfer of images to an iPad.

    -Marc

  • #3252
    arminw

    Hi Marc

    I am totally with you on what you've just said regarding shooting the S2 Tethered . Something has to change and I wished it would be sooner rather then later .

  • #3263
    proenca

    tethered shooting with the S2 is a bit of a .. mehhhh feeling.

    after trying phocus and hasselblad, being able to see the focusing, adjust everything on the computer, Leica Image Shuttle is a bit of a joke. Same with Lightroom.

    Not that I much product and studio shoot, but it would be refreshing to see a nice solution where I could see actual focus and adjust focus visually on the monitor and change all the settings on the computer.

  • #3264
    Josh Lehrer

    Leica's Image Shuttle software offers complete control over all the S2's settings including focus, not only can you activate the camera's auto focus, you can type in a physical distance and the lens will focus there. You can also fine-tune the focus in small or large increments. All without touching the camera.

    Could you clarify what you meant by “see the focusing” when using the Hasselblad with the Phocus software? I have not had the chance to use any of Hasselblad's cameras in a while so a refresher is always helpful so I can stay on top of all the new features.

  • #3266
    rsmphoto

    Maybe he's referring to Live View.

  • #3271
    proenca

    Josh Lehrer;3873 wrote: Leica's Image Shuttle software offers complete control over all the S2's settings including focus, not only can you activate the camera's auto focus, you can type in a physical distance and the lens will focus there. You can also fine-tune the focus in small or large increments. All without touching the camera.

    Could you clarify what you meant by “see the focusing” when using the Hasselblad with the Phocus software? I have not had the chance to use any of Hasselblad's cameras in a while so a refresher is always helpful so I can stay on top of all the new features.

    Correct me if Im wrong, but when I shot Hasselblad in a studio tethered, I could “live view” in BW what the camera could see and I could point where the camere woud focus in the image, from the computer.

    With the LIS, I can only put + or – in the scale for focusing. I dont see a live image of what the camera is “seeing”.

    Also, my settings in LR and in LIS for the camera ( metering mode, shutter speed, aperture, etc ) are all “locked” , ie, I cant change them. I have to go to the camera and change them.

    Again, Im new to the S2 – only have it for a week – so perhaps Im doing something wrong ?

  • #3272
    proenca

    Also, with LIS and USB, the image takes longer to get to the computer than Hasselblad & Firewire but then again, Its purely a port speed thing.

    Some people moan about it but I find it acceptable / find it strange if Leica in the new S wants to keep the USB but didnt updated the port to USB3, but Leica have their own schedules when it comes to introducing new features đŸ™‚

  • #3279
    Doug

    proenca;3882 wrote: Correct me if Im wrong, but when I shot Hasselblad in a studio tethered, I could “live view” in BW what the camera could see and I could point where the camere woud focus in the image, from the computer.

    With the LIS, I can only put + or – in the scale for focusing. I dont see a live image of what the camera is “seeing”…

    That's because the S2 does not have “live view”, which to implement would require a different sensor.

  • #3286
    David Farkas

    Have you tried Quickview in Image Shuttle? The 2MP preview JPG is pushed over the wire before the DNG and displays in about 1-1.5 seconds.

    This function works great to check composition, expression, lighting, etc.

  • #3290
    fotografz

    Doug;3890 wrote: That's because the S2 does not have “live view”, which to implement would require a different sensor.

    Hasselblad does not have “Live View” in the way you are thinking of it Doug. The sensor is not the issue …both the S2/S and Hassey backs use CCD sensors. I think you are referencing Live View as implemented on CMOS sensor cameras which is an in-camera function.

    The “Live View” of the Hasselblad is actually a tethered live video feed in B&W, and used mostly for critical focusing and immediate composition adjustment. The refresh rate is no where near that of the CMOS based Live View and is useful mostly for still life studio work.

    I use the Hasselblad/Phocus “Live View” once in a while for more difficult focusing situations, like focusing when using the HTS/1.5 Tilt Shift unit, or when the back is mounted to a full movements view camera … both of which are hard to critically focus by eye at the camera.

    BTW, the Hassey solution also allows focusing by ear … it produces a frequency feed-back audio and a live frequency graph. We used this once with a 39 Multi-Shot back to check a Schneider 120 Macro view lens on a Rollie Xact-2 that needed micro shims to acquire critical focus.

    Different animals really.

    -Marc

  • #3293
    Doug

    Thank you, Marc, for the clarifying info; pretty tricky technology there! This live video feed is from the camera viewfinder, then, not off the sensor? Or with a device used instead of the back?

  • #3297
    fotografz

    Doug;3904 wrote: Thank you, Marc, for the clarifying info; pretty tricky technology there! This live video feed is from the camera viewfinder, then, not off the sensor? Or with a device used instead of the back?

    Actually, it has nothing to do with the viewfinder Doug. It is the back tethered to a computer using Phocus software. This is why the back can be used on a tech or studio view camera without the Hasselblad camera at all. Hasselblad doesn't call it “Live View” … it is “Live Video.”

    In reality, I don't find it terribly useful on the H camera. In most cases, you can just shoot, adjust focus using the +/- software focus adjustments, and zero in on critical focus … just like you can with the S2. This is where the capture speed to full res is most important.

    We have to realize that the S2 is a relatively young system. Imacon, then Hasselblad has been at this for quite some time … and for most of that time the concentration has been on tethered studio operation … if you want to experience some really amazing tethered operation you should see the Phocus Software take total control a 200 meg Multi-Shot back.

    -Marc

  • #3298
    fotografz

    David Farkas;3897 wrote: Have you tried Quickview in Image Shuttle? The 2MP preview JPG is pushed over the wire before the DNG and displays in about 1-1.5 seconds.

    This function works great to check composition, expression, lighting, etc.

    Thanks David, that preview speed is not all that bad. The question is then how long before the full res file is there to check 100% focus? … keeping in mind that immediately checking focus is less critical when shooting bursts of live subjects compared to shooting a still life subject.

    I only use a FW800 to 400 tether with my H4D/60 because of computer issues with my front FW800 port on my aging 8 core Mac Pro2,1 … so the transfer isn't as swift as it could be. Even then, the preview is there in 1 second, with the larger file resolving in 3 more seconds … if I then click the 100% zoom, that takes 3 seconds to resolve. This includes applying any adjustments I made to the initial shot … and at 60 meg 645, this is a much larger file.

    I think what most tethered shooters are hoping for is swifter LR tethered S2 operations in future. The S system lends itself to spontaneous shooting even in the studio … and I love using it that way. The LR workflow in total is why it would be preferable … all the immediate adjustments that are possible, even while you are in the middle of shooting, is a really nice way of working.

    I wonder how much of a role the graphics card plays in all this? I know it is a critical aspect of the Phocus performance. When I moved to the 60 meg back, my tired graphics card really showed its age … when I replaced it with a ATI Radeon HD 5770 the tethered speed increased.

    -Marc

  • #3308
    proenca

    David Farkas;3897 wrote: Have you tried Quickview in Image Shuttle? The 2MP preview JPG is pushed over the wire before the DNG and displays in about 1-1.5 seconds.

    This function works great to check composition, expression, lighting, etc.

    Thanks for the tip David.

    Will try once my S2 will come back from Leica Portugal, went for a sensor cleaning (should be tomorrow or thursday) – will let you know how it works.

    Again, thank you for the tip

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